“Christians Enjoy Sex”?
i met him over at Bills site, friendly christian, last year. his name is Ed. at first i didn’t know what to think of him. i do recall being offended on more than one occasion. thinking back now…it wasn’t because Ed was out of line…it was because i was uncomfortable. i was afraid of not being able to answer his questions about God. how do you talk to an atheist about God? then, after way too long, i just started being myself…the real tam. i let down my guard and began seeing Ed for who he really is…an amazing, intelligent, thoughtful, caring and loving man. period. and i have grown to love and respect him a great deal and am blessed to call him friend.
i asked Ed a while back if he would be willing to share his thoughts or questions about christianity here on my blog so that we could join him in a discussion. he gladly agreed and im honored by his presence here today…
“Tam has asked me to guest post on her blog to present a non-believers prospective on the Christian world. A Christian asking an non-believer to post on their blog is why I have so much hope that blogging will bring the people of the world together.
The most surprising, shocking, revelation I have discovered is that Christians enjoy sex. Gasp! I thought all you guys did at night was read bible passages to each other. I thought that all that beggtin was purely for God. 
I did receive religious training when I was growing up. First in my mother’s Protestant church, then, when she died, in the father’s Catholic church. I was a very bad student. You all should pray for the sanity of my religious instructors.
I am interested in learning more about a few topics. How do you receive God’s guidance and the soul.
1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
2. What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit? Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make. If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?
I did “pass” my religious classes. At my first communion I did however get the impression that the priest wanted to hit me over the head with the chalice instead of giving me the consecrated host.
I am excited that Ed guest posted…hey Ed!! i will give some of these questions some serious thought…and when I am finished working today I will join in and try to give my two cents!
Tam- awesome idea!
What a great idea! I will speak to question 2, as I just heard a great explanation of this in the summer Bible study at my church (DVD series by Priscilla Shirer called Discerning the Voice of God). She explained that all people are made of three parts: spirit (inmost part where we can communicate w/God); soul (what makes us unique—personality, will, mind, emotions, experiences, humor, intellect, etc.); and body (what houses spirit and soul, how we interact w/others and the world).
For all people, we are born w/a dead spirit due to sin. But through Jesus, God exchanges the dead spirit w/a new and healed spirit (w/o a new one, we are and feel disconnected from God). The soul is the part of us that is in process, being changed and refined throughout life to match up w/Jesus. And the body is slowly aging and will one day die, but we will then receive a new and healed body.
For some reason this made sense to me! I had always wondered about this and was often confused, but now it clicks. Not sure I did Priscilla Shirer’s explanation justice (perhaps I have confused you more?)! I’d love to hear your response (Ed—and Tam!) to these ideas. (BTW, I also attended Catholic church and training as a child. It does leave an imprint, doesn’t it?)
HEY ED!!! HEY ED!!!!
1) the bible. i still haven’t figured that whole “prayer” thing out…
Tam – thanks for hosting Ed’s questions.
Ed – you’re going to discover (maybe that’s your intent) that Christians don’t agree on a whole lot of things…
1. I’d say neither. First, I’m not living my life trying to be “guided” by God; it’s more like I’m trying to live my life according to examples already provided by historical accounts (Scripture – yes, but many other writings as well), the counsel of trusted friends (my wife in particular), and of course, I do run things up the flagpole to God. But God has rarely “shown me the way” – it’s more like once I’ve been through something I look back and realize how situations/events were orchestrated to turn out a certain way (how he had His hand in things). The thing about God is – you can’t put Him in a box. I was listening to a preacher this morning that said, “as soon as you make anything religious (turn it into a rule) you suck the life out of it.” There are few absolutes to walking the Christian life – many great practices and disciplines, but few sure-fire, tried and true, absolute gimmicks that are guaranteed to produce the desired results. The thing is, if you want a desired result in the first place, your heart is probably not in the right place…
2. There is debate about the differences between spirit and soul – I’ve heard explanations that attribute our emotions, will, etc. to either/or depending on perspective. Whatever they both are, I believe they are both eternal. Your statement of living by God’s guidance as the measure for whether spirit/soul spends an eternity w/God is in error (thank your religious teachers). No one lives absolutely according to God’s standard; we do things our way (that’s SIN btw). All expressions of faith/religions fail in the sense that they try to provide the *true* litmus test/measure/ performance metric for how we go to *heaven* (spend eternity w/God).
So, nobody goes to heaven based on their following God’s guidance, nor the degree to which they succeeded/failed at discerning and/or following His guidance. By that standard we would all spend an eternity apart from God – whether that’s in *hell* or our spirit/soul perish…well that’s a whole different question (that we can’t really answer definitively).
Ed – I’ve got a question for you if you don’t mind (I’ve been wanting to ask this question of an atheist for some time now). Many atheists I know point to the world and say – how can there be a God, loving or otherwise, that allows all this [insert tragedy, disease, disaster, etc.] to happen. My question is this: What, do you imagine, the world would look like if there WAS a God? That is, how would it be different from what we have today?
Peace.
Tam & Ed – My Bible is very important to me – I have several but the one I use the most is a Thompson Chain Reference in a NIV translation. I am not a bible scholar – there are a lot of things that i don’t understand. However, its the things that I understand that get my attention the most. I feel God speaks to me in my heart and through my mind. But what surprises me the most is the way he answers my prayers and meets my needs.
ED! You are popping up everywhere! Ok… here’s my comments*:
“Christians enjoy sex.”
In this context, ‘enjoy’ feels, to me, well… just too weak of a word. Something with more ummph is needed here. I’ll come up with something by the end.
“How do you receive God’s guidance…”
I have no idea. I do. Sometimes alone. Sometimes from others. Sometimes from non-Christians, Sometimes from watching dog owners clean up after their pets. Sometimes from my children. Sometimes from strangers. Always when I least expect. Sometimes while reading the bible. Sometimes while reading someone’s blog.
“Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?”
Christians are not all united on this. I believe the bible to be infallible. My interpretation, well… not exactly spotless.
I think Soul=Spirit … I’ll confirm that when I get to heaven.
“Does a person’s soul exert influence…”
Mine does. I mean, I do. I’m so confused.
“if a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven.”
Not necessarily.
“What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance?”
That’s between that person and God. The criminal on the cross next to Jesus was assured by Jesus that he would join him in heaven when he died. Criminals typically don’t live by God’s guidance.
“Does their [any] soul cease to exist when they die?”
No. We were built to last well beyond this blink of an existence.
“I did “pass” my religious classes.”
I did not take a class until I was 38. I wonder sometimes if we don’t do God’s word an injustice by watering it down to G and PG rated material. If we were to really depict the bible stories accurately (on the big screen), we would all be throwing up in the aisles. I have learned the bible is full of R/X-rated, gut-wrenching, blood spewing, penetrating events and people. It has ummph well beyond anything those boyhood classes taught. Beyond even, what many “adult” bible classes will dare to teach as well. As a poet, I savor penetrating words.
_______
*not to be confused with answers.
Ed (Tam),
I normally wouldn’t chime in on a topic like this, but what the heck. It may be a different perspective than others might contribute here.
Number one… ‘primary’ source? not sure I have a ‘primary’ source… certainly prayer and the Bible are a big part, but I gain a lot of guidance from other areas where God speaks (sometimes even clearer) like from His Creation, the world around us, relationships with people, regardless of their belief systems (that’s right Ed, God can even speak through you..)
Yeah, the guidance in the Bible is infallible. I think that a God who is capable of creating the intricacies of the universe is more than capable of overseeing the dictation and compilation of His Word. The problem is… reading it clearly… without the baggage of 2000 years of (mis)interpretation to influence what we think. Honestly, the pastorate, theologians, and more recently Christian authors have done more damage to a clear reading of Gods message than anything else. It’s made people lazy in reading and understanding it. It’s a lot easier to sit in a pew and be spoon fed its ‘guidance’ (tainted by the baggage of the Pastor) once a week than it is to delve into it on our own to uncover what God is telling us.
That leads me to answer number 2 … I don’t know.
Seriously, it’s taken some time to eliminate the ‘modern quantitative’ way of thinking from my world view… the need for a definite answer… I am now comfortable saying ‘I don’t know’. The soul is not a topic that God chose to cover when he orchestrated the compilation of His Bible. Everything Christians ‘know’ or believe about the soul is extra baggage that theologians and pastors have come up with on their own over the past 2000 years specifically because they were afraid to say “I don’t know”.
This ‘baggage’, not just about the soul but about lots of stuff, is a topic I’m very interested in right now… I’m formulating an article for my blog now about this. Hopefully I’ll have it up this week. (I don’t have as much free time as Tam …
)
Hey! turns out my take isn’t all that different after all!!
Thanks B4D and Ric… you guys are readin’ my mail…
i love, love, love this! (hi ed! hi tam!) i wish i had time to really dive into this today… i don’t. but i’m so glad you’re asking, and i’m sure you’ll get a myriad of different answers to mull over!
love from florida!
Hola:)
(1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible?
~ both, but more so the bible; its easier to open to, then find the quiet time.
When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you?
~God responds to me by my writing, song, and everyday people.
Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?)
~ Yes. I think because God wouldn’t let it have been read all over the world, if it taught false doctrine.
(2. What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit?
~ A Human soul falls for the flesh, things of this world, its thought pattern is always set on the ” ME” factor, and while the spirit is the guidance from Heaven; it is sometimes called the ” conscience” or Holy Spirit, and it is the one thing that keeps us at a balance, if we don’t have a balance in our spirit and the soul then life is haywire. Its best to lean more on the thoughts of the spirit.
Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make.
~ Yes. Absolutely. We are all held accountable to our own actions, and therefore how we show others how to live….by how we live.
If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?)
~ Ya know, this is a tough one, because its sad to think about that not everyone will be in Heaven. But yes, to the only WAY, if your heart does not know Jesus, then you will not join God in heaven, and will spend eternity in a not so nice place, but as far as not following God’s guidance, I think we all have fallen short at that, so if that was the case, maybe 5 people would be let into heaven….
Thanks for the questions Ed:)
Hi Tam. Hi Ed. Hi talking people.
I am going to be the fly on the wall for now. I am enjoying the conversation thoroughly.
Great idea Tam.
Thanks Tam. I’ve thought about doing this on my blog with my cousin, an atheist, but thought it might go in many directions. Maybe there’s hope!
P.S.
That is all I do. All Bible, no sex …except to procreate.
Tam this was awesome of you to think of!!
Hey Ed, thanks for stopping by today and talking with us!
After reading the posts I can truly say that Christians absolutely do not agree on everything. lol
I have to say for me my “guidance” and yes, I don’t only feel but know I am guided by God or the Holy Spirit that is. God guides my paths but it is my choice wether to follow or not. What I mean by this is I trust in both Bible and prayer for this guidance. There are moments I will read the Bible and something just jumps off the page at me and it’s like “Ohhhhh!” haha
As for prayer I do not hear an audible voice. I do not see angels. And if I did I would probably think I was completely and totally a mental case, which is why God probably would never speak to me in either way. =)
I do feel that God speaks to me through my thoughts though. I dont mean every thought but some. There have been times where I was so worn out and desperate for an answer I just didnt have and suddenly it was like it was all so clear. Thats when I know that it was Him and NOT me cause I am just not that smart!!
As for the life after death stuff, soul vs. spirit….yeah, Ill let others take the floor on that one. I dont think I could word it the best way.
Oh and I am cracking up about Christians and sex. That is hysterical!! My gosh Ed!! We ARE human!!! lol
Hey guys,
When I saw this title, I had to stop in. We’ve been so busy with moving, moving and more moving!
Ed and Tam, I think this is very cool.
These thoughts won’t attend to all of the aspects of your questions, but I still wanted to share. As some others have mentioned, there might be some variances of beliefs within Tam’s readership. So in my answers I am using “I” instead of “we” fully knowing other believers feel this way, but I don’t want to speak on “our” behalf as Christians since there might be some disagreement. The “I” is not intended to be exclusive.
Concerning God’s guidance, I rely on first the Bible. God has given directions in the Bible. He has taught things like priorities and principles that shape my core belief system and then decisions should flow out of that belief system that is grounded in the teachings of the Word of God. There are often times when a decision might require more direction than a general life principle (i.e. – Where should I go to college? Which house should I buy?). The Bible, of course, doesn’t say “You should go to college in Tulsa”. In these situations I rely on prayer for direction. Since the Bible teachings that God’s Holy Spirit will teach my spirit, I believe that I can hear God speaking. This requires discipline and discernment but it usually happens as a thought in my mind or an overwhelming feeling of “this is the right (or wrong) thing to do” in my soul. Because God is the same as He always has been, any directions a believer will receive from Him in prayer will be in agreement with the Bible.
Concerning the soul and spirit, the soul is made of the mind, the will and the emotions. The spirit is the eternal part of each of us that will go on living forever. When someone dies, people refer to “something” leaving. What makes the person is the spirit. So, while the spirit is the eternal part of the human being, the soul is what influences decisions through thoughts of the mind, choices of the will and feelings of the emotions.
According to the Bible, it is not one’s actions that determine the eternal destination of a person’s spirit but an individual’s response to Jesus. It is not how well one behaves that will lead to heaven. The most quoted verse of the Bible, John 3:16, explains just this. “…That whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”. John 3 continues to read “…but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son”. It is clear that eternity is determined by belief in or rejection of Jesus. This condemnation that Jesus spoke of is what the Bible calls the second death. The first death is when the physical body perishes and then the second is explained in Revelation 21. It reads, “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” So, sadly, no, the soul of the unbeliever does not just cease to exist. Annihilation of the soul is more comfortable to think about than an eternity in Hades but this is what the Bible teaches. I would also like to add it is not “God that sends people to hell”….this was not His original plan but in His perfect holiness and justice this is what had to happen when man chose to disobey. His original plan involved man living forever and enjoying an open, unhindered relationship with Him. At the end of all things, this plan will be restored in heaven.
This is a great discussion, I’m so glad I stopped by today and I am looking forward to discussion to come!
Tam: Thanks for having the courage to step outside the box and ask Ed to chime in on your blog.
Ed: Thanks for risking it on Tam’s site! I haven’t read all the responses, but i’m sure you’ll get some that are thought provoking, some that are regurgitated and some that are totally worthless dribble. That’s typical of all human endeavors to address specific issues. Who knows, maybe Tam’s readers are wonderfully informed and are the exception to that rule.
As to God’s guidance, it’s a relationship thing. We all have people with whom we relate on various levels. We also communicate with them on various levels and in differing ways. God chooses how best to communicate with us based upon the depth of our relationship to Him and our abilities to receive it. However, the message He shares remains consistent throughout, and with every person – in other words, He doesn’t give one truth to one and a different, opposing truth to another.
There are four primary ways and one extraordinary way in which God communicates. Again, each will be consistent with each other.
First, is in the Spirit – that’s when we sense/feel/know God is telling us something from within – His indwelling presence speaking to us internally.
Second, is through the Bible – a specific word from a particular passage that directly relates to the questions we have posed to Him.
Third, is through fellow Christians who truly walk with God – it is needful to hear the same advice from at least 2 to 3 unrelated believers so the picture isn’t clouded by a single individual’s perspective.
Fourth, through circumstances too coincidental to be haphazard (the most difficult means of communication because it’s the easiest to manipulate the interpretation of events to one’s own desired outcome).
He will usually speak to us through more than one these ways, (sometimes through all four) to confirm it is actually Him and so the message isn’t obscure.
There are also those who have prophetic gifts given to them by God for the common good of the church/fellow believers. God can choose to manifest His communication through these gifted people. The Bible is very clear on how this is to be done and in what circumstances to prevent human manipulation (it involves confirmation from other Prophets and the testing of the word given).
God is real. Therefore, He can and does communicate. Is this a scary or freaking kind of thing? It can be; especially if we’re new to spiritual things or accustomed to simply living life in the empirical side. Remember, it’s not about the communication per se, but about the relationship with Him that God cares about the most.
Dr. Ron Wilcoxson
Hi Ed, here is my take on your questions:
1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
I think God communicates to us through multiple mediums. I can say that I have honestly heard His voice in soul, which I realize just sounds like pure mysticism, but it’s true. He also communicates to me through the Bible, through the people around me, through nature and in all the little things. As far as the Bible being infallible, that is a large question (as I am sure you are well aware). The Bible is a narrative written by many different authors, going through different situations in different cultures. Does this make it seem like it’s conflicting sometimes? YEP! I do, however, feel that the Bible was all divinely inspired, and it is infallible when placed in context, and not read through our own personal worldview.
2. What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit? Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make. If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?
In all honesty, I am still learning about the differences between the soul and the spirit, and I really don’t feel qualified to answer. The whole discussion as to what heaven and hell are is a total different subject. I would be happy to share my thoughts if you are interested.
YES!
[i haven't read the post yet...just responding to the title. i'm going back to read it now]
Tam & Ed: Thanks for opening up this dialogue. It is so refreshing to observe respectful conversation between the atheist and Christian point of view. The questions and answers posted here have prompted thoughtful introspection for which I am grateful.
Thanks Tam for honor me by asking me to post to your blog. I am not use to answering so many comments so I will apologize in advance if I miss anyone.
darla – I look forward to your thoughts
erinstraza – If I follow you we are born with a dead spirit. One part/aspect(?) of the this spirit is the soul. If we follow God’s guidance in life our soul will match up with God’s and we will join him in heaven. If we don’t follow God’s guidance then when we die our spirit remains dead and dies with us?
mandy – I hope you find better answers than I did.
b4guy – “you’re going to discover (maybe that’s your intent) that Christians don’t agree on a whole lot of things…” – I would expect that in any group of people there will be difference of opinion. This is true of atheist as well as believers. My method for understand something is to keep asking questions until I find the best question that will lead to the most understandable answer.
2. “All expressions of faith/religions fail in the sense that they try to provide the *true* litmus test/measure/ performance metric for how we go to *heaven* (spend eternity w/God).
So, nobody goes to heaven based on their following God’s guidance, nor the degree to which they succeeded/failed at discerning and/or following His guidance.”
So God is the one who judges(?) us and we won’t know that judgment until die?
Question – “What, do you imagine, the world would look like if there WAS a God? That is, how would it be different from what we have today?”
If God was benevolent I would guess there would have no wars or starvation in the world. If God was a Diest God, one who created the world than gave man free will and took no further interest(?) in it, that world be be exactly like this one.
Papa, “I feel God speaks to me in my heart and through my mind. But what surprises me the most is the way he answers my prayers and meets my needs.”
I like the idea that God surprises you, but hopefully not on judgment day.
Ric – Something I am learning as I speak with Christian’s is that they almost as many question as I do. My perception, mostly based on what statements by religious leaders in the news, was that Christians thought they had all the answer I was supposes to live by their rules. I am learning to separate the word religion (living by rules set in stone) from who many Christ Followers view their system of belief. I am learning that I was the one being judgmental about Christians, not necessarily the reverse.
BuddyO – “Honestly, the pastorate, theologians, and more recently Christian authors have done more damage to a clear reading of Gods message than anything else. It’s made people lazy in reading and understanding it. It’s a lot easier to sit in a pew and be spoon fed its ‘guidance’ (tainted by the baggage of the Pastor) once a week than it is to delve into it on our own to uncover what God is telling us.”
That is something I would not have expected a Christian to say before I started reading blog’s like Tam’s. I take this to mean that each of use needs to read the Bible and search for understanding and less on what other people/religious leaders/scholars say these words mean.
It’s lunch and I have only got to response#8. I am clearly not going to be able to respond in detail to everyone. I will try my best to continue this discussion.
Well it appears someone has already answered to his satisfaction (no pun intended) the question on whether us Christians enjoy sex. If not, he could go by my blog and read the sexercise post.
http://totaltransformation.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/sexercise-how-good-of-an-exercise-is-sex/
This is a great discussion. Again, it blows my mind how we can talk about “controversial” things and walk in love. This is the beauty of God’s people
My primary source is God. Period. That can extend to prayer, reading His Word, listening to praise music, reading a book that He has directed me to. The consistent thing is that the source of all of that is Him; all of it leads to Him.
How does He respond? Sometimes in a small, still voice that I receive in my Spirit. A lot of my communication with God is not on a natural level. It’s in the Spirit. It’s hard to describe but He speaks in my Spirit. Through conviction. Through nudging. Through lack of peace or the presence of peace. The world may call it “intuition” or “instinct” but I believe it is God speaking to me. Sometimes it’s through what I read, either in His Word or another source that links to Him [Christian books, articles, websites, blogs etc]. Sometimes it’s through praise dancing or listening to/singing praise and worship songs. A lot of times it’s in dreams. He speaks to me through them; both literally and figuratively.
I have to pray about the second question. I do have an understanding of it but I believe I need to pray for wisdom concerning how to put it in words.
Have a blessed day Ed!
PS. Love you Tam!
Ed –
You asked me a couple questions, so here’s my answers…
So God is the one who judges us? Yes.
we won’t know that judgment until die? There’s actually two judgements according to Scripture. The first is to identify those that will get into heaven (again, not based on our efforts) and the second is a judgement of those that are going to/are in heaven (absolutely based on our efforts).
I believe we can know the outcome of the first judgement before hand (that’s promised to us in Scripture multiple times/ways). The second judgement – I don’t believe we get a whole lot of advance notice on that outcome. The second judgement does not determine our eternal residence, however – it’s more of a bonus/rewards determination. (However, any and all bonus gifts received from this judgement are turned in (redeemed) at the feet of Jesus – so I’m not sure what is the point at the end of it all.
danielle – “It is clear that eternity is determined by belief in or rejection of Jesus. This condemnation that Jesus spoke of is what the Bible calls the second death. The first death is when the physical body perishes and then the second is explained in Revelation 21″
That is does make the question if who goes to heaven very clear. It fits with my belief that if we don’t feel God’s presence there is no reason to believe he exist. The idea of living forever is great motivation to want to believe
, at this point I suspect that even I felt God’s presence I would still reject him.
rwilcoxson – “God chooses how best to communicate with us based upon the depth of our relationship to Him and our abilities to receive it. However, the message He shares remains consistent throughout, and with every person – in other words, He doesn’t give one truth to one and a different, opposing truth to another.” “Remember, it’s not about the communication per se, but about the relationship with Him that God cares about the most.”
I can understand that it is God who chooses when to make his presence know to us. How is this relationship best expressed? By feeling love in your heart for God? By living by the standards of Jesus?
alece – I am asking question that we could spend many days discussing, that religious scholars spend a life time discussing. What we accomplish by asking each other question is to gain a better understanding of each other, even if we never do come up with a “final” answer, which I would guess we won’t. Except believers get to keep asking God their question when they get to heaven.
ang – “A Human soul falls for the flesh, things of this world, its thought pattern is always set on the ” ME” factor, and while the spirit is the guidance from Heaven; it is sometimes called the ” conscience” or Holy Spirit, and it is the one thing that keeps us at a balance, if we don’t have a balance in our spirit and the soul then life is haywire. Its best to lean more on the thoughts of the spirit.”
I can understand the idea that our spirit lets us know when an action we are thinking about taking is right or wrong. What about people with a mental illness? Their brain is not “hard wired” properly. It would appear they literally don’t understand that physically hurting someone else is wrong.
ryan k – I would like to see a lot more dialogue between believers and non-believers, as long as each is willing to actually listen to what the other guy is saying, otherwise we just get a time wasting debate. I learn more from talking to people I don’t agree with then those with the same views as me.
Gretchin Anderson – “I have to say for me my “guidance” and yes, I don’t only feel but know I am guided by God or the Holy Spirit that is. God guides my paths but it is my choice wether to follow or not. What I mean by this is I trust in both Bible and prayer for this guidance.”
Trust is a very important part of a relationship. Even if God made his presence know to me in some manner, I would still have a hard time putting myself in his hands. I did not have a “trusting” relationship with anyone growing up, at least not after my grandmother died, when I was nine. After my mother died, when I was thirteen, I did turn to God. I prayed and read the bible. I ask a lot of question in religious class, which mostly got me in trouble.
I never felt the presence of God. At eighteen, after feeling reject by everyone including even God, I tried to take my life. After that I decided I needed to find another answer, which I did – what I call reason and logic. If God was sending me a message it was a strange message, turn away from and be saved. 
It would be very hard for me to trust God now, even if he made himself know to me.
joshmickelson – “The Bible is a narrative written by many different authors, going through different situations in different cultures. Does this make it seem like it’s conflicting sometimes? YEP! I do, however, feel that the Bible was all divinely inspired, and it is infallible when placed in context, and not read through our own personal worldview.”
This goes along with what others have written. I agree to understand anything we need to know the proper context it is in. Part of my problem was probably simply understanding the language(?) of the bible. My perception of the difference between our experience is that you do “feel” something, God’s presence, when you read the bible and I never did.
Ed, you have some good questions. I’m older (63) and can only give you what I believe.
I talk to God all day. I carry on converstaions as I would to you or any other person. A lot of time I find God’s answers to me in the Bible, other times things just seem to happen to let me know if it’s a yes or no answer.
I believe the Bible in infallible. At one time I used to believe it was written by man and couldn’t be correct, but believe now it was Gods words put in mans mind. I was a very wild child until in my 40’s. I’ve changed my belief a lot since then. Luckily my daugher became a Christian and brought me back to God.
The Spirt is Jesus. Actually Father, Son and Holy Spirt all one are around us and protect us.
Wondering about the terrible things that happen in this world. Children are abused. I wondered about this a lot growing up as an abused child. Now I realize it made me what I am today. Which is not perfect, but a friend of Father, Son and Holy Spirt. It’s the warm feeling you get. The same as when you first see you child and a lot when you look at that same child as they grow into adults and you still get that warm feeling looking at your child.
Okay, I ramble a lot. I hope you can understand some of it.
[Ed—Wow! lots of discussion! hope you can track this back . . .]
Good questions! As I mentioned, I just heard this three-part person explanation last month; I’m expert. And I’m sure others may have varying perspectives. This is just one way of looking at how it all connects. I’ll try to think out loud on it.
The three parts (spirit | soul | body) of a person are separate yet interconnected. The spirit is dead b/c of sin, but that doesn’t mean the soul and body also must be dead—they are impacted negatively though. For instance, if my hand is numb b/c of nerve is pinched, the nerve is the problem (the hand is fine); but the hand still cannot function properly.
So when the spirit is dead (unable to communicate w/God b/c of sin), that causes us to languish in soul (the personality goes unchecked, our motivations are self-focused, etc.) and body (poor treatment, unwise choices, etc.).
As for the idea that “following God’s guidance” is the thing that causes us to “join” Him in heaven, I have to disagree there, b/c it sets us up to perform “rightly” in order to earn a spot at God’s side. And it creates all these questions: How much of God’s guidance do I need to follow to get there? What if I make a poor judgment or sin purposely b/c my soul (which is still in process) has no willpower? If joining God in heaven is based on my performance, then that stresses me out b/c I mess up so much.
Instead, I have placed my hope for heaven completely on Jesus and His promises in the Bible. Generally speaking, I am trusting that b/c of the perfection of Christ, God has forgiven me of all my mess-ups and given me a new spirit that can communicate w/Him. This allows me to rest easy (knowing that God is bigger than all my mistakes), while also motivating me to live in a way that honors the sacrifice He’s made for me.
As for those whose spirits are still dead when their body dies . . . good question! I don’t have a clue.
Well, I have a guess: the dead spirit is joined in death by the body and the soul. The Bible describes death as separation from God (rather than merely the end of this earthly life), so perhaps that’s what it means? What do you think?
[You are getting quite the load of responses . . . I completely understand if you cannot get back to this discussion! But I’ve enjoyed the challenge and the thinking. Thanks! I'll keep checking back in the days to come. Peace to you!]
i am completely speechless here. my day started out with joyful tears. now…reading all of this discussion…the tears just keep coming…
i’ll be back later once i gather myself up…
love to you ALL!
and thank you!!!
ed – i love you friend…
oops, meant to say, “I’m NO expert.” (How embarrassing for a writer/editor!)
gchyayles – “How does He respond? Sometimes in a small, still voice that I receive in my Spirit. A lot of my communication with God is not on a natural level. It’s in the Spirit. It’s hard to describe but He speaks in my Spirit. Through conviction. Through nudging. Through lack of peace or the presence of peace. The world may call it “intuition” or “instinct” but I believe it is God speaking to me.”
That is very clearly said. When I first started praying as a child I really did expect to hear some voice from “on high”. What do you think God’s voice will sound like when you get to heaven? Charlton Heston? Harry Belafonte? Barbara Walters?
b4dguy – “I believe we can know the outcome of the first judgement before hand (that’s promised to us in Scripture multiple times/ways). The second judgement – I don’t believe we get a whole lot of advance notice on that outcome. The second judgement does not determine our eternal residence, however – it’s more of a bonus/rewards determination. (However, any and all bonus gifts received from this judgement are turned in (redeemed) at the feet of Jesus – so I’m not sure what is the point at the end of it all.”
I am not clear on why the second judgment isn’t at least part of the determination of “our eternal residence”? I assume by “eternal residence” you mean heaven.
If the first judgment is not based on our efforts than are you saying the sole purpose of living by God’s guidance, or Jesus’s standards, is to show Jesus you love him?
Wow… I just think this is Awesome! I love people voicing their opinions without it becoming some harsh debate.
BTW Ed, I cannot stop thinking about various verses for a new sex poem. All day. In my cube. Hope you’re happy.
Christians enjoy sex?
Moreso than you know. God created sex, romance and love. When Christians really understand what sex is truly about, I think we actually enjoy moreso than non-believers.
God is not the killjoy on sex. God wrote the book on sex. Don’t believe me? Crack open a Bible and read Song of Solomon.
Holla at your Creator.
To answer your questions:
1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
God is my primary source. Understand that God is the most creative being ever to existed. So with that in mind, don’t you think that He knows how to effectively communicate personally with each of us?
One person may receive effectively through images. Another, spoken word. Another, relationships. Another, written word. God may use one, some or all ways in order to get “that” to you.
God’s communication with me? He talks to me. Simple. I am obedient to His will and my ears of my heart is completely open to Him. How does he do it? In the best way to get to my attention.
If the Bible was written by men, then it fails on all levels. But it aint’. So it doesn’t. Written by God.
2. What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit? Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make. If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?
That is awesome.
All religions in the world are dictated by what we do by a god’s guidance in order to appease whatever god.
Christianity is the antithesis to religion.
Christianity is all about that we cannot do anything to earn our way to God. It is all about what God did for us in order to get us to Him. All we have to do is believe on His name. Done.
Christianity cannot be a religion because there is nothing for us to do but believe and obey God.
Yeah that big, booming voice isn’t quite the reality Brotha Ed
I think God will sound like He always has. Gentle. Loving. Calm. A sweet sounding trumpet. A cool breeze. The warm sun. Denzel Washington won’t be so bad either 
I’m just playing. Enjoy the rest of your day and the wonderful discussion here!
Tough questions. On a. Tough. Day.
But, I’ll do my best.
“How do you receive God’s guidance…Is your primary source praying or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? ”
Honestly, it depends on the situation. There are times I read a certain passage and my mind opens, which simply means I understand something in a way that I did not understand it before–in a more positive, spiritual way. But, at other times, prayer has worked for me. Granted, my most common prayer consists of a single word, “Help.” But once I went on a mission trip and someone, who was a Christian, lost his temper. More than once. And that had a very negative impact on the team and especially me because I was still digesting the losses of some people who were very dear to me. Well, I got so frustrated, I threw down my work gloves and left. The negativity had awakened my grief. I cried. Then, I prayed. I told God that I was overwhelmed and I didn’t know how to deal with this and so could He please help me find a way to address this appropriately? Do I speak to the leader of the camp or to the person directly? I really didn’t know. My mind was just that confused. Well, later, the peron who had lost his temper CAME TO ME. And I told him that I about the losses I had endured, why I had decided to be part of the team, and that he was having a negative effect on me and on the team. He explained that he pushed himself VERY HARD, that he was VERY DRIVEN. He resolved to do better. But, afterwords, he disappeared for hours. I started to get worried. Had I said the wrong thing? Or had a I said the right thing in the wrong way? But when he came back, he seemed different. More friendly. And at the end of the next day, someone else on the team had told me, “I don’t know what you said to him yesterday, but he was a lot better today.” So, I guess that’s an example of how, to me, prayer has been a source of guidance.
“Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?”
To this I would have to say that “infallible” is a very strong word that has oftentimes led to alienation and division between the atheist and the believer. For that reason, I would not have chosen that word. I know you did, but please respect my point of view because I really don’t want to risk being argumentative, alienating, or divisive. Instead, I would simply point out that the bible does not sugarcoat human nature. Abraham lied, Jacob swindled Esau out of his birthright and stole his blessing, Saul consulted witchcraft people (I forget the exact term–tough day), David had Uriah killed so that he could sleep with his wife, and Solomon introduced Israel to idolatry. I’m sure you know the story of Judas and Peter, but the rest of the Disciples, and all those huge crowds that followed Jesus for days so they could get something to eat for free, deserted Him during His trial.
Now, with all that being said, I would only add that I, too, have my changed significantly over the years. So has my interpretation of Scripture. Twenty years ago, I read the Beattitudes and thought, “This doesn’t make dang sense!” But last year I read it and…maybe this sounds a little over the top, but it’s the only way I can explain…but I read the Beattitudes again and my mind opened. I saw what I believe God intended me to see. And the end result can be found in an Essay on my site called “When Lightning Strikes” (I’d include the link if I knew how; I’m sort of computer illiterate). The words didn’t change in the past twenty years; I did.
“And the soul…What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit?”
To some, they are simply one and the same. But I would define the soul as higher emotion, like a mother’s instinct to protect her child during a time of danger or the enduring committment of a married person to remain faithful during, say, a time of temptation to have sex with someone else. (Unless someone is living in La La Land, one knows full well that there are always consequences to marital infidelity.) But the spirit I would define as the place where the mind and the emotions meet, merge, and form the person we have become and are becoming. And that’s the part that has infinite metaphysical value in God’s eyes, which is precisely why Christ died for our redemption.
“Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make?”
Based on the definition I just gave, I would certainly say so.
“If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven?”
I certainly hope so. Some days I’m really very quite sure, but there are other times I am not so sure at all. I am human, after all.
“What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance?”
Well, that depends how much the person knows about God’s guidance. Let me put it to you this way…No teacher in his right mind would EVER test a Ph.D. candidate with a physics major on ancient Babylonian history. Everything about ourselves that has contributed to who we are, from where we come from to where we are to where we are going, is taken into considersation when God makes the determination–whatever it may be. The bible does say that Hell is pretty unpleasant place, but I don’t do “fire and brimstone” theology. I try to teach love. Because God loves me. I do my best to teach forgiveness and grace and mercy and compassion. Because that is what God has taught me.
“Does their soul cease to exist when they die?”
Sorry…but I’ve taken up enough space already!
(Sorry to hog so much comment space, Tam! But, all things considered, I think I did pretty good for a bad day. Hope so anyway. If not, I’m sure I’ll find out soon enough.)
One more thing…
…What is this thing called sex anyway? I think I knew once or twice, but that was quite some time ago. And I just can’t seem to remember anything about it now…
…but never let it be said I don’t have a sense of humor!
ED – I am hoping the biggest surprise is that you will be there to greet me! ( notice I have you going first !! ;o) ) After all, you are older. just think, we wouldn’t have to worry about who picks up the tab for lunch! I think heaven is going to be a great and wonderful surprise for all there.
Ed-
I am still trying to figure out the whole spirit, soul thing, too. This is what I do know, that God is spirit and we are made in His image, so we are spirit too. I don’t know that I agree with the “we are born with a dead spirit” idea. I think that the spirit part of us is eternal, it doesn’t die, no matter if we are in heaven, on earth, or eventually in the lake of fire. God is spirit and He doesn’t die.
About the two judgments:
The first determines whether or not you have accepted Jesus as your ticket into eternal life. Our sin keeps us separate from God, the blood of Jesus is what brings us to Him. Its payment for what we have done wrong in our lives.
Why would we want to give effort to live a godly life? Jesus taught by using a lot of stories, so here’s my attempt to teach you with one. Let’s say you racked up a whole lot of debt, $2 billion, your debtors suddenly called you on it, and you couldn’t pay it. A man has compassion on you, wants to save you from your debt, and pays it off for you. Unless you are an extremely ungrateful and wicked person, you wouldn’t want to commit any offenses against that man. You might even want to get to know him better and become friends with him. Its the same with us and our sin and Jesus. Also, most of us want to be blessed by God, and God’s blessings don’t come when we are living a sinful life like the one that separated us from him in the first place. His blessings flow when we are living like Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount.
I haven’t learned a whole lot about the second judgment yet, but I am thinking its got something to do with rewards and your placement in the kingdom of heaven, whether you are one of the least or among the greatest.
One can know the results of the first judgment beforehand. If you don’t I would seriously question your faith.
Step one is repentance. You have to be sorry for your sins, sorry for your wicked state. You have to want a change, a 180 from the sin of your life in order to be truly repentant.
Step two is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. What does it mean to believe on Him? It’s not enough to believe He exists. Satan and all the demons and wicked spirits all believe he exists, that he is who he is. They are obviously not saved. It takes faith in what he did for you. That he, as part of God, chose to put on flesh, to come and live a sinless life on earth, and to die as payment for your sins. You have to believe that that payment is sufficient, that there is nothing you can do to earn your way into God’s favor. “For it is by grace that you are saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Its not of works so that no man can boast.” That is God’s grace, giving you a way to pay for your sins that you don’t deserve.
Step three: Once you believe on Jesus, you are created new in Him to do good works, which God planned that we should do. And you know that you know that you know that you are saved, that you will pass the first judgment, if you choose to stay on course, and not to revert to sinful life again.
satan likes to steal away the truth from unbelievers, and he also blinds the minds of unbelievers. So satan, you and your minions stay away from Ed, no more stealing or blinding for Ed. I command this in Jesus’ name.
Ed, I also think you were seeking God when you were young as what you wanted Him to be, how you wanted to hear from Him, etc. I think you would have infinitely more success if you sought Him for who He truly is. He does love you and want you to be His son, but he won’t do it falsely through what you want Him to be. He is big on the truth, even in these days where absolute truth is not pc.
May you seek Him in truth and be rewarded for it. I know I was.
Christina
P.S.
Sex is a whole lot better after you are saved. It’s more pure like the way God meant it to be, not perverted by sin or missing the love between husband and wife aspect. I didn’t get saved until after I was married, so I know and am not saying it because a Christian “should”.
Hi there everyone! I was invited to check out this conversation by Danielle (she knowing my passion for all things theological). So … hi Tam! I’m sure I’ve seen you over on Alece’s site at least.
Thanks for doing this – it’s great to have this kind of conversation.
I like so many things that people have already said here. I love Ric’s examples of how he hears God. That was awesome. And true, I think, for a lot of people.
Ed, your first question: Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
The primary source of God’s guidance for any Christian is the Holy Spirit. What vessel or method the Holy Spirit uses is completely different from moment to moment and person to person. The Holy Spirit is God’s spirit. In the gospels, a man named Nicodemus was wanting to know how a man could see the kingdom of God. (John 3) The kingdom of God, for explanation, is God’s reality. How He sees life, the truth pertaining to Him, and everything that operates according to that truth. Jesus explained that a man had to be born again in order to see this. This truth is found throughout Scripture. The sin of mankind (every person, if they’re honest, knows they’ve sinned) creates a spiritual separation from God. This separation is so tragic that there is no other way to say it than that it is death itself. Sin kills our spirits, essentially. So Jesus is saying that in order for a person to really see God, and understand anything about His way of doing things, they must be born again. Their dead spirit must literally come back to life. This is why Jesus went to the cross. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. This is saying what I just explained, but it also says that death has to happen as a consequence of sin. It’s that tragic. What Jesus did when He went to the cross for us was that He died that death that we all deserved. He paid that wage for us. His death means that we as humans don’t have to be dead spiritually. We have a hope of life. When He came to life again from the dead, He made that same life that conquered death available to us. This is what being born again is. It means that we recognize that He took our death and gave us His life in return. How does this pertain to the Holy Spirit? Well, Jesus said that He would leave (as we know, he ascended into heaven. He’s not walking around with us here), but would send in His place the Spirit of Truth that would guide us into all truth. (John 14:16, 17; John 15:26; John 16:13) This is the Holy Spirit. So when a person becomes born again, Jesus does for that individual what He did for the disciples – He sends the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide them into all truth. Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit is different for every believer. Some hear very drastic things like an audible voice, or they have visions or dreams. For the vast majority of Christians, the voice of the Holy Spirit is quiet, and is one that must be learned. This is why I love Ric’s answer. The Holy Spirit can speak through anything. Prayer is a time to interact personally with God. Prayer doesn’t automatically look like hands folded, on your knees, eyes closed. Many times prayer is eyes wide open, hands driving a car, talking to God about what’s on your mind. This is a personal interaction with God that God really enjoys and which gives our spirits the closeness with our creator that every being longs for. Reading the Bible is also a way of spending time with Him. This is learning about who He is and who He is not. These things (prayer and reading the Bible) are essential elements, and cannot be done away with in the Christian’s life. This is how you get to know Him and understand the sound of His voice better. It is, though, the Holy Spirit (whichever way He speaks) that is actually giving the guidance throughout the day. This was prophesied by Isaiah, “Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, ‘This is the way; walk in it.’” (Isaiah 30:21)
Is the Bible infallible? The objective answer is yes. But this is an answer that must be arrived at (as with all other things) by faith. Fallible men were the vssels by which it was all written down. That is true. But if you accept that there is any truth in the Bible, than you have to accept that it is all true. John 1:1,2, 14 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; He was with God in the beginning … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us …” According to this passage (and many others which confirm it), Jesus Himself is and was the Word of God. In a spiritual sense, in God’s way of seeing realtiy, the words on the page are actually Jesus Himself. Jesus was without blemish. He walked a sinless life, and was God made flesh for us. If all of these statements are true, than the words that we read on a page are actually God Himself in all His perfection – the Word, written down for us to read and know.
Your second question: “What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit? Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make. If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?”
It’s a little difficult to tell whether your primary question is about the human nature of soul vs. spirit, or if it’s about eternity. The first option has already been beautifully expounded on by a few others here (soul is mind, will, and emotions; spirit is eternal – the part of you that is either dead or alive), so I’ll talk about the second option which is eternity.
There have been a few answers so far talking about ‘God’s guidance’ and what that means. I think it might be good to clarify what you mean. If you mean to say a system of actions which please or displease Him, than that would have one answer, and if you mean a life reborn by Him, that would be a different answer. Danielle and b4dguy have done a great job clarifying this difference already, so maybe I don’t need to go into much detail. Being born again isthe necessary element to living with God for eternity. If you are not born again, all the good deeds in the world won’t get you there. This goes back to what I said earlier – sin equals death. Death is eternal separation from God. The only way to be reunited to God (which is life) is to accept Jesus’ payment for your death. This is the beginning. Once you are born again, life becomes a journey of faith, the purpose of which is always to know Him better. In this journey, we as humans are still prone to sin and things that displease God (shocker, I know – Christians aren’t perfect), and so we then need to lean on His guidance to not do the things which separate us from Him, and to do the things which bring us closer to Him. These things determine primarily our quality of life on this earth. Everything He desires for us is for our good, and everything He says to stay away from will harm us. The soul plays a integral part in this. The soul, being comprised of the mind, will, and emotions, is kind-of the rope between the body and the spirit. Our bodies are dying. They carry around in them every day the living picture of what life is like apart from God. When you are born again, you still have that same body. It will still die. Our flesh will always side with sin, when left to it’s own devices. Your spirit, however, is completely reborn. Your spirit has been changed from a life of darkness to a life of light. The Holy Spirit actually dwells inside of you, and is the life of your spirit. Your soul, then, hangs in the balance between these two. To be born again, you must make a decision (which is an action of your will – thus, the soul) to accept what Jesus did for you. Your soul just made the most important decision of your life. After your spirit is born again, the soul must continue to decide between the sin that your flesh wants to do, and the obedience that your spirit tells you is the right thing to do. Your soul decides which you follow. It’s kind of like an issue of a simple majority. The ruling will always be 2-1, but you decide (will – soul) which one wins. This is the biggest way your soul influences your decisions. Your mind and emotions are the processing agents – kind of like a chemical analyzer – that take the imput of both the spirit and the flesh and chew over the reactions you have to both. This also plays a part in the decisions you make.
So, on to eternity. Eternity, and the life beyond this world is actually the real point of living. As humans, we have one of two options: with God, or not with God. With God is generally referred to as heaven; not with God is hell. The only way to live with God is to do what I said earlier – accept that Jesus took your death and gave you His life. God is holy. Like light. Like a consuming fire. It isn’t that He’s interested in shoving away all those who didn’t like Him, as though He were egotistical or snotty; it’s that nothing dark or impure can survive around Him at all. Consider a fire – let’s say youve got a nice blaze going and put a piece of steel in the fire. What will happen? Not much. It might change colors a bit. The heat would have to be much hotter than an ordinary fire to consume the steel. Let’s say, though, that you put a piece of cardboard in the fire. The fire will consume it in a matter of minutes until there is nothing left. God is like this too. Only His own nature can withstand the intensity of who He is. All else is consumed. Those who have accepted His life for their death, then have His own life in them, and can live for eternity in His presence without being consumed. Those who don’t are like the cardboard box. We have chances, choices, at every step in the road to accept what He says or reject it – that is what this life is all about – so that when we leave this world and stand in His presence, we either know Him as God or have rejected Him as such.
What will happen when those who have rejected Him have died? According to the Bible, they go to hell. See Mark 9:23 as a good first reference. Hell wasn’t created for humans; it was created for Satan and his host. However, when a person rejects the life of God, they throw in their lot with Satan who did the same. Therefore they share in that judgement. A person was created as an eternal being. That is, their spirit is eternal. Therefore a human spirit does not cease to exist when they die. They either live in the presense of God, or they live separated from Him. In that reality, there is no middle ground; it is either one or the other.
I realize in saying all that that there are different views among Christians (as others have mentioned). I tend to believe things in a black and white fashion, so I hope I haven’t come across too blunt. I have given you references so you can examine what I have said against the backdrop of Scripture. If you don’t have a Bible handy to reference them, http://www.biblegateway.com is a great online tool – you can type in the references I’ve mentioned and it will take you right to them.
Well, I hope we have helped in some way in answering your questions, Ed! God bless! Thanks for hanging out with us!
Ed – real quick question, are you an agnostic or atheist?
Ok, and I started typing this morning, before I went to work, when there was only 15 or 16 comments. So there’s been a lot of discussion since then. I’ll have to go back and read now …
There is a lot going on here and some heavy thoughts. I think this is a great open discussion. Thanks Tam and Ed for allowing this to happen.
Ed,
Something you wrote caught my eye. You wrote, “I can understand that it is God who chooses when to make his presence know to us. How is this relationship best expressed? By feeling love in your heart for God? By living by the standards of Jesus?”
God does choose to make His presence known to us but sovereignty is not the only factor in knowing His presence. James 4 tells us that if we draw near to God, He will draw near to us. Of course, He was the first one to initially do the “drawing near” when Jesus came…but the Bible and history are full of examples of those who wanted to feel God’s presence and passionately sought after that. In Jeremiah 29 God promises that if we seek after Him with our whole hearts, we will find Him.
Our love for God and knowing His presence isn’t always a feeling. It’s like a marriage…I don’t always feel madly in love with my husband every moment of every day, but when it comes down to it my love for him influences decisions that I make whether I am “feeling” it or not. Sometimes love is a choice. Others times I am overwhelmed emotionally with love for my husband. It is the same with Jesus. Jesus taught that if we love Him we will obey His commands. This doesn’t have to be out of guilt or just because we have to follow the rules, but our obedience to the teachings of Jesus will flow out of loving Him (feelings included or not).
I am up to comment #37 so far. I have to go to a condo association meet to find out how much our special assessment for oil will be. Could you guys please speak to God about the price gasoline and oil.
Judy Wescott – You have explained yourself very clearly. I like “rambling”, it means your are speaking what you feel, from your heart.
“I talk to God all day. I carry on converstaions as I would to you or any other person. A lot of time I find God’s answers to me in the Bible, other times things just seem to happen to let me know if it’s a yes or no answer.”
To me that means you see God not as just someone who sits in judgement of you but as a friend, a father figure. I hope when you speak to God in public you wear one of those ear telephones so people won’t think you are crazy.
erinstraza – “So when the spirit is dead (unable to communicate w/God b/c of sin), that causes us to languish in soul (the personality goes unchecked, our motivations are self-focused, etc.) and body (poor treatment, unwise choices, etc.).”
I can follow that clearly and it makes sense. I am still not clear on the difference between the spirit and soul. I’ll read some more comments and come back with a more specific question if I am still confused.
“I have placed my hope for heaven completely on Jesus and His promises in the Bible. Generally speaking, I am trusting that b/c of the perfection of Christ, God has forgiven me of all my mess-ups and given me a new spirit that can communicate w/Him.”
Other have made this same commnet. We won’t know God’s judgement until we die. A Christian trust God and has faith in his word.
Ric, I can’t wait to read your sex poems on your blog, You will post them won’t you?
Joe Louthan – The best sex is involves love and sharing. Two people who love each other, sharing their bodies with each other. Your thoughts give new meaning to “Oh my God!”.
“God’s communication with me? He talks to me. Simple. I am obedient to His will and my ears of my heart is completely open to Him. How does he do it? In the best way to get to my attention.”
The words “my ears of my heart is completely open to me” speaks to trust and love of God. One thing that seems clear to me is that for Christian’s the heart is the most important organ.
“Christianity is all about that we cannot do anything to earn our way to God. It is all about what God did for us in order to get us to Him. All we have to do is believe on His name. Done.”
This is a common theme in the commnets and it gives me a better understanding of how Christians see their system of beliefs. I am not sure we can even call it a system, it’s all about trust and love.
Noreaster – “So, I guess that’s an example of how, to me, prayer has been a source of guidance.”
That was a great story and I understand why you value prayer so much. You spoke of negativity, which I think can be a real problem when people of different faiths, or no faith, communicate with each other. When I first starting posting to Christian blogs I know I was guilty of that.
“I saw what I believe God intended me to see.” “The words didn’t change in the past twenty years; I did.”
I read this in a few other comments. I think this is an important point. It’s your relationship(?) with God that will eventually open your eyes to the meaning of the words in the bible. Some people get it quicker than others.
“Everything about ourselves that has contributed to who we are, from where we come from to where we are to where we are going, is taken into considersation when God makes the determination–whatever it may be.”
Once again the consistent theme(?) that you can’t know what God’s judgement will be. You can only have faith in his words.
joshmickelson – “Ed – real quick question, are you an agnostic or atheist?”
I don’t believe that God exist because I have never personally seen evidence that he does. That makes me an Atheist.
I also believe that anything is possible. God may some day make his presence know to me. That I think makes me an Agnostic.
You pick the label.
Ed – wow!!! i hope you’re not overwhelmed my friend
i did not expect this kind of response. i hope you are finding truth and seeing the love in the words on this page.
simply put for me…. i chose to acknowledge something that has forever existed. i did nothing to earn or even deserve His love, forgiveness and gift of life (here and eternally) it was His love offering to me…and i just chose to believe it. am i perfect or sinless? Lord no! and HE knows that quite well. am i aware of who i am and who i am not according to His word? yes. and that is what makes the difference in my life. it is what motivates me. it is not because of “works, rules, laws or religion” that i strive to be “better” (than my old self) it comes from a deep, unexplainable gratitude and humility that compels me to give my best to Him…it is the least i can do for all He has done for me, for us all.
i will be back later.
thank you everyone for such a beautiful conversation. i am blown away and humbled…
ed – may i respectfully suggest that God has, and is, made/making His presence known to you? i believe He has to all of mankind. you dont need a bible to see or feel God. You just need to be willing. the only thing that stopped me before, was me.
Hi Ed, Just joining in the convo…
if there is hard evidence, then we wouldn’t need faith to believe in God…it’s a leap of faith to love and trust that Jesus died on the cross. All we are required to do is believe it in our hearts…and “blam”…we are Christians.
The questions you ask above are secondary theology which I don’t debate or discuss without the agreement that Jesus is our savior who died for our sins…since that is the only question that really matters – everything else is up for debate after that.
Choosing to accept Jesus is a simple decision with a simple answer – but it will change your life FOREVER! it doesn’t require goosebumps or butterflies in your stomach to make this decision.
So glad you came over and posted here. Can’t wait to read your blog too!
Ed – I’m posting for my brother here. He popped in on Google Talk to chat with me, and I mentioned I was commenting over here. So he read everything. He made a great point that I thought I’d share (seeing as how he didn’t want to do it himself).
Referring to comment #25 he said, “toward the end of it he mentions that if god was sending him a message it was a strange message, turn away and be saved. it strikes me that if he was having all these problems in the church and no one there was helping him, then that might be exactly what god was telling him. it might be god’s plan to get him out of a church thats not filled with the holy spirit and therefore probably not saving him and to eventually find true believers. granted its taken him a while to find some. (my comment: Which may have led him (in the roundabout and longish way) to those of us on the internet, blogging about life in God.) yeah.
I thought that was a really great thought! So I wanted to share.
Oh Tam. I should probably pop over here more. You’re such a sweet soul. Simplicity, honesty, humility, and passion. I was moved by your comment.
I don’t believe that God exist because I have never personally seen evidence that he does. That makes me an Atheist.
I also believe that anything is possible. God may some day make his presence know to me. That I think makes me an Agnostic.
You pick the label.
haha great response. Ironically, I think a lot of Chrisitians secretly deal with these questions as well!
Tam,
Feel a little sheepish to share this because I feel like I am just way out of the ball park here. All the intelligent and courageous conversation you invite to go on. Thank you. Not sure I feel cofident to add in. Will think about it. But again, thank you for being willing to do so. This and you are very, very cool.
On another note, I wanted to let you know I finally pushed myself a little bit, getting out of my comfort zone on, “This is what I did today,” sort of blogging. If you have a moment, you might like reading my thoughts on “Pray-paring for 20 somethings.”
Link: http://sharingnotes.blogspot.com/2008/07/pray-paring-for-20-somethings.html
Blessings,
Roxx
http://www.sharingnotes.blogspot.com
First of all I said sex poem. Singular. Not sex poems. Man this is like a fish story … it get bigger and bigger…
I’ll have to post IT on my blog as no “Christian” publisher will touch it. We’re all G-rated remember?
Christian – “The first determines whether or not you have accepted Jesus as your ticket into eternal life. Our sin keeps us separate from God, the blood of Jesus is what brings us to Him. Its payment for what we have done wrong in our lives.”
“One can know the results of the first judgment beforehand” “Step one is repentance” “Step two is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” “Step three: Once you believe on Jesus, you are created new in Him to do good works, which God planned that we should do.”
How can you know, before you meet God on judgment day(?), that your repentance and the good works that you have done are adequate to God? Unless God gives you some kind of sign that your repentance and good works are adequate, than it seems to me you can’t know “the results of the first judgment” until you die.
I have survived 65 years in an America run by politicians with both of their hands in my pockets. I am not too worried about satan.
annie – I think I follow most of what your saying.
“The primary source of God’s guidance for any Christian is the Holy Spirit. What vessel or method the Holy Spirit uses is completely different from moment to moment and person to person. The Holy Spirit is God’s spirit.”
Is this Holy Spirit the same spirit we are born with whether or not we accept God? If I don’t accept God, if I am not born again, I don’t have a spirit?
“He’s not walking around with us here, but would send in His place the Spirit of Truth that would guide us into all truth.”
Is the Spirit of Truth the same as the Holy Spirit?
“Is the Bible infallible? The objective answer is yes. But this is an answer that must be arrived at (as with all other things) by faith. Fallible men were the vssels by which it was all written down. That is true. But if you accept that there is any truth in the Bible, than you have to accept that it is all true.”
How do you gain the proper understand, that God intends you to have, of these words? How do you know when you have?
Hi everybody, I’m Jonathan, Annie’s brother. She encouraged me to post so I’ll give it a try.
First of all I’d like to support what my sister said about prayer. It’s any interaction with God, so anytime I think “what would God want me to do” or “God please explain this, I’m confused” or just “God help me” since he knows my thoughts I’m praying to him. For that matter reading the Bible is prayer too since it’s looking to God for the answer. In this light only a tiny fraction of my prayers are on my knees with hands folded and eyes closed. There’s alrdy been alot of great posts about how the response can come so I won’t get into that.
Another thought I’ve been having as I read this is about living by God’s guidance. Ed especially but even some of the other posts make it seem likes there’s some arbitrary set of rules God has set up that, as Christians, we should follow and some day in heaven they’ll pay off. I’d like to point out that almost every law in the Bible isn’t for God’s benefit but ours. For example we can take the title of this post, sex. There are several laws in the Bible about things such as chastity, being faithful and more. This has led some people, like Ed, to the belief that Christians don’t enjoy sex. This is obviously not true, after all God created the human body and HE made sex enjoyable. The laws hes given us in regards to it are so we enjoy it the way he intended. It’s not hard to find a story of someone, Christian or not, that had sex with some one they weren’t married to and regretted it. Most of his guidance works that way, for our benefit. It makes sense, after all, he created the human body and knows it better than we do. This includes what we enjoy and whats good for us.
Another thought I had was when Ed talked about what he thought the world would be like if there were a) a benevolent god or b) a God that gave us free will and then left. Your missing the third option c) a God who gave us free will and is faithful to his word. Wars and starvation, the two blights you mentioned, are caused by human failings. To correct them God would have to take away our freewill. He made a covenant, a promise, with us that he won’t do that. So hes trying desperately to lead us back to the right path, even to the point of giving his life so we can get there.
And finally, you said you don’t believe in God because you don’t see any evidence hes exists…. Look out side, at animals, plants, the intricacies of the human body, you believe that’s all an accident?
Anyway I hope this post wasn’t off topic. I have faith you’ll find the answers your looking for, I’ll be praying for you.
Wow, amazing conversation here.
#48 The only thing that stopped me before was me… How true!
Being somewhat of a new creation there are still alot of things i’m trying to figure out.
I know that this is real. I’ve experienced what I feel is evidence enough.
Ed Rocks!!!
danielle – “God does choose to make His presence known to us but sovereignty is not the only factor in knowing His presence.”
“Our love for God and knowing His presence isn’t always a feeling. It’s like a marriage…”
(I have never know the presence of God or marriage so I am 0 for 2)
“This doesn’t have to be out of guilt or just because we have to follow the rules, but our obedience to the teachings of Jesus will flow out of loving Him (feelings included or not).”
You are saying that as we perform acts of obedience to God we know he is in our presence whether we actually feel anything? The proof of his presence is that we are performing these acts of obedience?
Tam, “i hope you are finding truth and seeing the love in the words on this page.”
I read your blog everyday, as well as the blogs of other Christian friends. I don’t need any other proof that love is a core expression of Christian beliefs.
“may i respectfully suggest that God has, and is, made/making His presence known to you? i believe He has to all of mankind. you don’t need a bible to see or feel God. You just need to be willing. the only thing that stopped me before, was me.”
I guess I stopped being willing to listen to God when he did not help me, or provide any guidance, when I needed it. I guess you could say I am vain enough to judge God.
I just read your last post Ed and one thing I have to add,
“How can you know, before you meet God on judgment day(?), that your repentance and the good works that you have done are adequate to God? Unless God gives you some kind of sign that your repentance and good works are adequate, than it seems to me you can’t know “the results of the first judgment” until you die.”
As was said earlier nothing humans can do is “adequate” for God, that’s the whole basis of Christianity. All that you have to do is believe that Jesus died for your failings because he loved you. As was pointed out earlier, the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He’d know him for what? an hour? what could he possibly do in that time that would make up for all the sins he committed in his life. And yet the Bible says 41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” So as long as you believe in him you can be confident that your going to heaven
ed – you asked God to show himself to you one day. you were trying to commit suicide.
your attempt at death failed. He DID show himself to you friend.
He did.
JudiFree – “if there is hard evidence, then we wouldn’t need faith to believe in God…it’s a leap of faith to love and trust that Jesus died on the cross. All we are required to do is believe it in our hearts…and “blam”…we are Christians.”
I agree completely. I see my brain as the most important organ in my body. For Christians it’s your heart. I will never find God using my brain. I would have to want to see him with my heart.
God designed sex. Sex is a metaphor for the intimacy we are to have with Him – and we’re the bride. I don’t mean to be dirty or perverted, but think about it (maybe a female can actually add their perspective on this) – we are to open ourselves up to God and let him penetrate us. That requires trust, faith, vulnerability – in the natural there are no promises that that trust and faith will be honored; many of us can testify to this. But God loves us perfectly and so we can open up to him…
(not an original idea – I heard this in a seminar once).
dang Bad! i want to go to YOUR seminars
ladies? will someone take this. im blushing.
annie – “it might be god’s plan to get him out of a church thats not filled with the holy spirit and therefore probably not saving him and to eventually find true believers. granted its taken him a while to find some.”
Your brother makes a very interesting, and valid, point. I may not have enternity, like God, to choose to seek him out again. Today I lack the motivation. I am only 65 so I expect to have another 30 ot 40 years to go.
Jonathan – “This has led some people, like Ed, to the belief that Christians don’t enjoy sex.”
That was said tongue in cheek. I have found that putting the word “sex” into a post gains it a lot of attention.
“Your missing the third option c) a God who gave us free will and is faithful to his word. Wars and starvation, the two blights you mentioned, are caused by human failings. To correct them God would have to take away our free will. He made a covenant, a promise, with us that he won’t do that. So hes trying desperately to lead us back to the right path, even to the point of giving his life so we can get there.”
That’s a good point, God could be benevolent, but is being faithful to his word in not interfering with our free will. Thanks for your thoughtful post.
Jonathan – “So as long as you believe in him you can be confident that your going to heaven”
I agree. If you have faith in God, and you follow his words, using your heart and the soul/spirit within you, you should feel confident that you will go to heaven.
I also see that Christian’s aspire to be humble. That to me would mean you would never presume to have 100% confidence that God will judge you adequate for Heaven.
Ed,
You asked, “You are saying that as we perform acts of obedience to God we know he is in our presence whether we actually feel anything? The proof of his presence is that we are performing these acts of obedience?”
No, that is not what I am saying. What I had written was in response to two different questions. I was replying to, ““I can understand that it is God who chooses when to make his presence know to us. How is this relationship best expressed? By feeling love in your heart for God? By living by the standards of Jesus?”
I wrote about drawing near concerning wanting His presence and that it is not only up to God. (”it is God who chooses when to make his presence know to us”)
And to “How is this relationship best expressed? By feeling love in your heart for God?” I wrote the “not always feeling it” references were about our emotional response to God and obeying no matter the feeling of the moment, knowing that feelings come and go but the Truth of Him and His love changes. As I wrote before, the soul includes the emotions and our emotions don’t always “behave” like we would like them to. Love for God is expressed, as you asked, in both love in our heart and through obedience to His teachings.
As an example, I wanted to make a purchase, my husband didn’t want me to…I was out shopping and had the opportunity to buy it but didn’t out of love and respect for my husband. The actions of love are small and not just actions like “not having an affair”. Even though I wanted to go against what Daniel had asked, I didn’t because I love him. It is the same with Jesus. I don’t always understand or want to obey but do my best to obey because I love Him.
Sorry if I my previous answer wasn’t clear to which thoughts I was addressing. It’s kinda hard having philosophical conversations on a message board. I hope this cleared it up a bit.
b4dguy – “God designed sex. Sex is a metaphor for the intimacy we are to have with Him – and we’re the bride.” “God loves us perfectly and so we can open up to him…”
That is an intersting way to make a very good point. Maybe I should bring a Bible on my next date.
Of course then she would expect me to marry her first so never mind. 
“that’s when she told me a story about free milk and a cow.
No huggy, no kissy until I get a weddin vow…”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=my4lhkxLRjg
OK… I have been traveling all day… But let me give you an example of God’s guidance. (But it is going to be quick, my battery on the laptop is low left the power cord at the office. )
Got on the Airplane at 6:15am EST this morning. (The fact that I was sitting in first class is important.) I sat down next to an older Gentle man and proceeded to start my Morning bible reading during the 45 minute flight to Atlanta.
As we got situated the Flight attendant asked if we want our pre- flight beverage. I ordered coffee, the man next to me ordered a beer. Curious at 6:15 in the morning. I kept reading my bible. I also noticed that he seemed rather distant. I kept reading my bible. The plane takes off, we get to 10,000 feet and the man orders another beer. I kept reading my bible. His look of thought and distance continued. I kept reading… Well after his 2nd in flight beer, I kept reading… “Talk to him”…. What was that. “Talk to him” …”Ask him if he is Ok”… Now? “Yes now” …I took off my headphone, not sure what to say… I leaned in, praying in my head, just give me words… “Sir, if you don’t mind me saying something? … Him “No, go ahead” Me, “Are you ok?, you seem a bit distracted…” His eyes let up and he said oh “No I am fine, just a long flight ahead, and a lot going on in my head. ”
We didn’t talk about what he was thinking about, we didn’t talk about what was wrong. We just chatted for the next 30 minutes. I never said a thing about my faith, I just offered a friendly conversation about what ever came to mind. The smile on his face when I wished him well leaving the plane made accepting the prodding of the Spirit so worth it.
God’s guidance can lead you just to be a friendly ear.
Submitting now.. Battery is….
danielle – No need to apologize. Thank you for having the patience to take the time to explain your points to me. I doubt there is any way I could gain anything close to a perfect understand unless I experienced what you have. This dialogue has been very helpful to me.
From your original post:
“God does choose to make His presence known to us but sovereignty is not the only factor in knowing His presence. James 4 tells us that if we draw near to God, He will draw near to us.”
“In Jeremiah 29 God promises that if we seek after Him with our whole hearts, we will find Him.”
From post 68:
“I wrote about drawing near concerning wanting His presence and that it is not only up to God.”
Let’s see if I am getting it. God has made a promise, if we draw near to him, he will draw near to us. We don’t need to “feel” his presence to know he is there. Our feelings alone can’t be trusted(?). If we have faith in his word he we know he will be there, draw closer to us, just as he promised.
“Let’s see if I am getting it. God has made a promise, if we draw near to him, he will draw near to us. We don’t need to “feel” his presence to know he is there. Our feelings alone can’t be trusted(?). If we have faith in his word he we know he will be there, draw closer to us, just as he promised.”
Ed – Yes!
…Dying
Picking back up on the blackberry.
Why was it important that I got the first class upgrade? Had I not, would the other person sitting next to this man talk to him and offer a friendly ear? Don’t know. I do know that his smile was genuin, and at that moment I was meeting his need.
As for Sex…Oh you bet we do…Have you read Song of Solomon? Some of that well blow your mind if put into modern day terms.
ckrobooth – That is an amazing experience. If I read your comment correctly you heard God’s voice telling you to talk to the stranger in the next site.
It’s the simple acts of kindness that sometimes have the greatest rewards. Putting a smile on someone’s face is a very rewarding experience.
Yes Ed simple is good…Not all of us can make the blind see and the lame walk.;)
I have heard God’s voice only a few times in my life. Once when I was at my lowest of lows,(Read my testimony here http://philter48.wordpress.com), the other couple were in situations like today. There is no mistaking the voice when it happens.
I tend to be on the listening side of prayer. I ask for God’s will to be done not mine. I then just open my heart and mind as best I can, and just listen for him. As I said a couple times it was His voice. Most of the time it is working through decisions as I read his word. And yes I have faith that his word is infalable.
1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
I have a firm belief that God is real, living, and aware of us. I also have a firm belief in prayer and the word of God. However, I am not the type of person who expects nor receives communication from Him in the form of a voice, vision, etc.
I believe prayer is the most important tool in maintaining a relationship with God. This is where you can verbally and clearly communicate to Him what your questions, praises, comments, or whatever else are.
From my experience, His responses can come in many different ways, many of which may seem unreliable if you have not experienced it for yourself:
1. Impressions on your mind while pondering the things of God.
2. Guidance while studying the word of God.
3. People.
4. Occurrences (i.e., praying for financial help and receiving an unexpected check in the mail).
For me, these are some of the most common ways that God communicates with me.
FYI, I am a member of the LDS Church (http://lds.org). I find it very admirable of you to be open to such discussion. God bless.
Jesse – “From my experience, His responses can come in many different ways, many of which may seem unreliable if you have not experienced it for yourself”
I agree. The only way someone can know what it is like to experience a “response” from God is to experience it themselves.
“I find it very admirable of you to be open to such discussion. God bless.”
Thank you. People talking, working together, one to one, can get past any differences. It’s when we see the other person as a Christian, Atheist, black, white, American or Cuban that the conflicts start.
“I have survived 65 years in an America run by politicians with both of their hands in my pockets. I am not too worried about satan.”
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!
Ed,
Yes, that is what I was trying to communicate.
Thanks for having the patience to read through my ramblings!
Okay Ed, I’m back from work (again) so I’ll try to address your questions to my comment.
“The primary source of God’s guidance for any Christian is the Holy Spirit. What vessel or method the Holy Spirit uses is completely different from moment to moment and person to person. The Holy Spirit is God’s spirit.”
Is this Holy Spirit the same spirit we are born with whether or not we accept God? If I don’t accept God, if I am not born again, I don’t have a spirit?
The Holy Spirit is God’s spirit. Our spirit is our spirit. They are separate things. Our spirit was given to us by God, and as we are created in His image, is in the same image of God’s spirit, but they are not the same thing. The spirit you are born with is your spirit and will be so for eternity. If you are not born again you still have a spirit, but it is consumed by the sin nature you are born with, and is therefore dead.
You asked a question of someone else concerning a dead spirit which is an apt question and may be a bit difficult to explain. To us here on earth a dead thing is a thing which ceases to exist. Death, however, is itself is a picture if you will; a metaphor for what living apart from God is like. Life and living (the real kind) are things which involve happiness, joy, contentment, peace, satisfaction, discovery, fulfillment, wholeness – virtually every good thing you could ever think of. To die is to be unable to participate in any of these good things. A dead spirit, therefore, is one which cannot partake of any of the joys of life, and which instead merely exists, feeling the yawning absence of everything good, and therefore the virtual reality of everything bad. Eternity without God is the worst of everything, while eternity with God is the best of everything. Black and white, I know. Everything on earth is shades of these realities. Someone said it best: earth is the closest thing to hell any believer will ever know, and the closest thing to heaven any non-believer will ever know.
“He’s not walking around with us here, but would send in His place the Spirit of Truth that would guide us into all truth.”
Is the Spirit of Truth the same as the Holy Spirit?
Yes. The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit. Jesus called the Holy Spirit by a few different titles, and this is one of them.
“Is the Bible infallible? The objective answer is yes. But this is an answer that must be arrived at (as with all other things) by faith. Fallible men were the vessels by which it was all written down. That is true. But if you accept that there is any truth in the Bible, than you have to accept that it is all true.”
How do you gain the proper understand, that God intends you to have, of these words? How do you know when you have?
The word of the Bible, do you mean? Well the words of the Bible, as I said before, is God Himself written for us to read and understand. So reading the Bible is a way of knowing Him. Knowing God is a process, and not an end destination. God Himself is eternal in every respect, so it’s a good thing that this is so. I could keep learning endlessly and still have things I’ve not discovered. Knowing God is therefore SO much like a relationship. There are people in your life who ‘know’ you, and people who know you, and people who KNOW you. I know your name is Ed, and I think you live in Connecticut, and you’re having these questions about God. That’s about the sum total of it. So it couldn’t exactly be said that I don’t know you at all, but it certainly can’t be said that I know you well. The more I get to know you, the more I will know. Is what I know of you a ‘proper understanding’? Well, of what I know it is. For instance, to my knowledge your name really is Ed. I don’t assume you’re going by a pseudonym. So the things which I do know I can assume (if you’re truthful with me) are a proper understanding of you. But there is always more to learn. For instance, your given name could be Ed, Edward, Edmund, or some other variation entirely. Your middle name could be anything under the sun, or maybe you don’t have a middle name. Same with your last name (sans the ‘none of the above’ option, unless you’re Cher). So in other words, the things I know are not incorrect, but they are also incomplete. How do I reassure myself that what I know about you is a correct understanding? Well, I ask you! If I know you will never lie to me, than whatever you tell me, I can depend on the truth of. It is much the same with knowing God. We assume that He is truthful with us, and the things we know of Him we can be assured that we do know. However, it is an incomplete knowledge, and therefore one we can always be learning more about. When our hearts do question these things and we ask Him for reassurance or clarification, how does He answer? Through the Holy Spirit!
To expound on it a different way: The Word of God says that the Holy Spirit is given in our hearts as a pledge (of this life and faith in God) and that it is through His witness of Jesus in our lives that our spirits know that we have the things we’ve received from Him. I don’t know if that makes sense, but essentially that same voice that whispers behind us saying, “this is the way, walk in it,” also assures us at every moment that we are indeed born again, that we do have a living relationship with a living God, and that the things we learn about God are Truth. So the answer to both questions (how do we learn; how do we know) is by the Spirit of God. He reveals Truth (in life and in the Word of God) to us, and it is by the Holy Spirit that our hearts are assured of what we know.
I hope that clarifies things! I must say I admire you for taking on all these questions and comments, and being so open to learning. It may be a needful trait in people, but it is still uncommon. Thanks for the openness to converse!
ED- I really can’t add much that hasn’t been said, but I can give you an example of how God talks and loves on me.
Several years ago, I had a miscarriage early in my pregnancy, and I was devastated, and sick physically. It was winter, and some sweet ladies came to cheer me up. What none of them knew was my questioning heart to the Lord. “why don’t you love me, why did you let this happen?” “show me you love me”… My son came in from outside (yes he plays outside all year, even if he looks frozn) and he brought in a perfect yellow rose from the side of my house from a dead bush that I just hadn’t dug out yet,..perfect log stemmed no thorns, and the room of people gasped! Its winter, and I have the perfect yellow rose (my favorite color) I felt HIS love pour on me, and this single yellow rose…a gift from the creator, my God and my Father. (btw- I dried it..and I don’t doubt his love anymore)
Are we still talking about sex?
I am just going to say that I was raised in a christian background but didnt officially become “Christian” until I was 18 when I chose to become baptized. My mother felt that Baptism was a choice that I had to make for myself and I didnt feel comfortable doing that until I was old enough/knowledgeable enough to understand the decision.
1. Is your primary source praying, or the bible? When you pray how is God’s response communicated to you? Is the guidance in the bible, written by men, infallible?
I have never been very big on reading the bible as a christian and have never honestly felt the need to. I think personally that most of my communication with God occurs through events that happen in my life when I feel down or depressed and suddenly a friend shows up at my door to brighten my day. I think that minor things like that are shaped by God and we just dont always see these responses as controlled by God. Sometimes just observing beauty around us is a way to see feel Gods presence if you want to see it. It comes down to whether as you are reading the bible or praying or even talking to God (I talk to God but I dont consider it praying, probably just a difference of opinion) you want a response or not. You have to be looking to obtain a response or you just wont get one. I think someone said it best earlier that God draws closer to you as you try to become closer to Him. I believe that the bible is also infallible because even if you dont have the faith to believe in God making the men who wrote and copied the Bible copy it exactly you can look at history. The bible out there today (especially if you look at the Hebrew/Greek versions) is the same as it was when Peter and Paul and the rest of the authors of the Bible wrote them. It comes down also to understanding that Christians then wanted these stories to be completely true and remain unchanged because it added validity to their religion and their faith in God. I think I may be rambling but I have kinda done the same thing I think you are doing now by seeking a way to God.
2. What is the difference between the human soul and its spirit? Does a person’s soul exert an influence on how we live and the decisions we make. If a person lives their life by God’s guidance then when they die they, their soul, join God in heaven. What happens to the soul of someone who does not live by God’s guidance? Does their soul cease to exist when they die?
I dont know the difference between the soul and the spirit (not strong on biblical knowledge on the subject). My view is that the spirit and soul are intertwined and both add to us as human beings and I think that all of it together makes our personality and views. I think that one way or another God finds a way to speak to us in a way we find comfortable because God knows our spirit and the yearning of our souls better than we do. He seeks to find the most comfortable way to talk to us because he seeks to comfort us like a Father does to his children and He wants us to be comforted when he does talk to us.
annie – Thanks for taking the time to answer my answer my questions so clearly.
I agree that if our Spirit and Soul are dead so are we. I see the words more as a verb than a noun, but both are vital in living our lives.
I also agree on the importance of continuing to learn and ask questions every day. We will never know all the answers but the search provides our minds and hearts with the fuel they need to keep our spirit and soul alive.
tbyrd073 – “My mother felt that Baptism was a choice that I had to make for myself and I didn’t feel comfortable doing that until I was old enough/knowledgeable enough to understand the decision.”
You have a wise mother, this is a decision we must make ourselves.
“I have never been very big on reading the bible as a christian and have never honestly felt the need to.”
I would think the only important thing is how you live your life.
“I think I may be rambling but I have kinda done the same thing I think you are doing now by seeking a way to God.”
Rambling is good because that means your are speaking from your heart. I am not seeking a way to God, I am trying to better understand how my Christian friends lead their lives. I do think we have to keep our minds open to all ideas. I only know how I feel today. Whether some day I find God or he finds me is a question I can’t answer.
“My view is that the spirit and soul are intertwined and both add to us as human beings and I think that all of it together makes our personality and views.”
I agree. I think the health of our spirit and soul gives us a picture of how alive we are.
I like to keep an open mind on subjects too and I understand why a lot of people have a hard time placing faith in the divine because it is hard to see how it affects us. I think this was one of the main reasons that it took me so long (18 years) to come to terms with this. Being 23 years old now hasnt helped me to become any more knowledgeable on the subject of God or how he interacts with us but I just have a feeling that nothing happens without His hand in it somehow. We may not always understand or know He did anything at all to help us reach certain points but I think thats kind of the idea. He wants us to grow and learn on our own and gives us gentle nudges in the right direction sometimes like a child learning to walk. One of my favorite things I once heard was the following quote and it sums up a lot about the way I view this topic.
“When God does something right, people shouldn’t be sure He’s done anything at all.”
I hope you all have a wonderful day.
Excellent discussion and I am blown away at how easily some of you are able to express yourselves. I always struggle to make myself understood in conversations like this so I have refrained from jumping in.
I would like to address one comment Ed made:
“I guess I stopped being willing to listen to God when he did not help me, or provide any guidance, when I needed it.”
Ed, are you absolutely certain of this? Or was it simply a case where God did not provide the help/guidance you were EXPECTING? Christians are often guilty of this as well (myself included). We pray for something, we ask for help already knowing the answer we are hoping for. When God’s answer is different from what we are hoping for we miss it and then accuse Him of failing to answer our prayer. God ALWAYS answers prayer – sometimes, however, the answer is ‘No’. Sometimes the answer is ‘Not yet’. It saddens me to think that you have concluded He doesn’t exist simply because you missed His help.
I am reminded here of a story that many of you here are probably familiar with. A man was trapped on his rooftop as flood waters rose all around him. He cried out to God for save him. A few minutes later, a rescue boat arrived and they implored him to jump in. The man responded “That’s ok. I’m waiting for God to save me.” Several minutes later, a helicopter arrived and dropped him a rescue line. Again, the man refused their help saying “I’m waiting for God to save me”. Soon after, the flood waters swept him away and he drowned. When the man arrived at the gates of heaven, he exclaimed “God, how could you let me die? Why didn’t you save me?” To which God replied, “My son, I tried. I sent you a boat and a helicopter…..”
I think this story illustrates quite nicely how we must set aside our own expectations of how God should respond to us and be willing to receive answers that are in accordance with His will and His purposes – even if it is an answer we don’t particularly like.
I connected with your comment so strongly because I was once there myself. After the loss of our first child, I was angry and bitter and questioned the existence of a God who could allow it to happen. I disconnected for a long time until I came to a place where I understood that God never promises that following Him will make us immune from experiencing the terrible consequences of a fallen world. I don’t know why I have been asked to walk through some of the terrible trials I have experienced. I do know that I am a better person, a better disciple of Christ for having done so. God has grown my character, my faith, my dependence on Him in ways I never would have expected. And, in retrospect, I can see a myriad of ways in which God made His love and presence known to me in those wilderness periods.
He IS there, Ed. He is always there. Stop looking for the definitive burning-bush moment and start looking for the boats and helicopters.
God bless you, brother.
givemejesus – I have been on boats and helicopters and love to ride both. For some reason I like riding in helicopters, only twice actually, but not airplanes.
I think of my life as one long wild ride. My only expectation is that each day is a new dawn and I will hopefully experience something new.
Wow! today is the first time I have ever read this blog and I am blown away. I am a “biblethumper” now living in the Bible Belt and I’ve just got to say that the love and respect shown for one another and each other’s ideas is a cool refreshing breeze in my world.
Ed, there is some great wisdom here – I’ve been following Jesus for almost 40 years now and learned some stuff while reading through the comments. You could even say that God spoke to me through the wisdom of some of these brothers and sisters I didn’t know I had. Thank you all for the blessing you’ve been to me this morning
Jim2 – Tam’s blog is all about sharing love between all the borthers and sisters who comment here, not matter what is the source of our faith.
My middle name is James, so maybe I could be jim1 or jim3.