twitter twist
when i put together last weeks “my week at twitter”, i left out a couple of them. i decided to save them for a separate post. i’m curious as to what your thoughts are.
those who dont believe in God question how a “God” can let bad things happen. Believers blame it on Satan. um. maybe, just maybe – its us.
grrrr!!! people dont want a dictator God but they get pissed that Hes not fixing everything! that He “lets” crap happen. im gonna scream!
AND….”letting” is WAY different than “causing”. there! done with rant. maybe.
i guess i just dont understand how people dont see that you cant have life both ways. they dont want to acknowledge God but yet they get mad at Him for injustice. how can that be?
well. i have my own thoughts.
do you have any on this?
inProgress 
Although I believe Satan is at work and I believe there is a spiritual warfare around us, I also believe some of the “stuff” or “circumstances” are because of our doing. God gave us free will. He gave us all the rights, decisions, even the decision to get mad or blame Him. Although He is a forgiving and Forgetting of sins, I believe He grieves when we shove our finger in His face.
I think He stops chasing us when we do that.
Then our experiences and our “miracles’ become dull.
When we are the chaser His goodness seems so clear.
We have a choice: Not to be chased after or be the chaser.
A great deal of people (and today’s ‘modern’ society is encouraging them in so many new kinds of ways – all of which are similar to the ‘old’ ways this human trait was ‘encouraged”) DO want it both ways Tam š
They want their rights but not the same degree of responsibilities.
They want the good but not the bad that is the other side of say, the ‘food’ coin (like taste of sugar without the extra weight/bad immune system, etc) for example.
They want ‘good’ government but don’t vote for a decent candidate – or make the effort to run as one themselves or have some say in the party decisions. WE pay our politicians a pittance compared to what top company executives are paid and wonder why they do so poorly in running a state or country.
We want a decent police force but don’t want to be taxed more to fund it.
etc, etc, etc.
We want more than we ever give – to a large degree in our modern world.
And we want a God who loves and protects us from all harm – even that we ‘add’ to in our life. We want him to do miracles and wipe out all evil for us if we promise to be His.
We (as Christians that is) give thanks to Him for all good in life and for the ‘Miracles’ we think we see happen but think He could do ‘more’ when some tragedy that He has ‘not’ caused befalls us (because we are sinful).
It is human nature for so many of ‘us’ to think this way.
Mostly because we have never really ‘known’ or understood God or how he actually ‘works’ – we all too often think he MUST be like us and only like us (but bigger and ‘better’
He is nothing like us, or rather, He is SO much MORE than we could ever hope to understand that pretending to ‘know’ what he does – or Should do – and the ‘why’s of what He does will be forever beyond us while we live in our human body.
And i agree with you – ‘letting’ is way different to ‘causing’ but if he ’causes’ miracles he can cause disasters too – as a lesson to be learned from. Maybe he lets Satan take the credit for those though ? š
Kinda like politicians who are only ever seen in ‘good’ photo ‘Ops’?
<B
I know I’m taking the easy way out here, but this is what I think about that topic:
http://gitzengirl.blogspot.com/2009/01/free-will.html
and losing gifts: http://gitzengirl.blogspot.com/2009/01/spiritual-gifts.html
Beyond that, I would say the person you were speaking to that week didn’t seem to want to learn as much as she wanted to argue and have justification for her anger. It’s hard to help someone in that state unless they shift their attitude and choose to be open. Tough one, chica.
This self-centered society drives me nuts too, but I don’t get caught up in the “letting and causes”. I don’t think it’s either of them.
He didn’t LET or CAUSE you to do nuthin! He PLANNED it! And it won’t be until they, not just believe, but seek Him that they’ll get it.
If you do X, you’re gonna get X. And until you believe, follow and seek Him, you’ll never know what X is until after it happens.
We will never get to His level and understand it all, but the journey in trying makes it worth while.
The best part of it all: I won’t have to answer for them at the Gates, they will and I’m not here to judge em either. All I can do is plant seeds….He’ll do the rest, if they’ll let Him.
Seriously.
Sounds like a good name for a blog – “Choices R Mine” !
All of which reminds me if the motto of this day and age…”This Is My Truth, Tell Me Yours”. Few people have any concept of absolute truth anymore, so they just don’t get that they can’t have it all…
I think your points – and your frustration – are totally valid and true, Tam. I don’t mean any offense to people who have these thoughts/arguments/opinions, but to me it seems like desperate flailing around. You know, like someone who’s scared and blind and trying so hard to defend against an unseen but terrifying situation? Does that even make sense? It’s just the mental image I got when I thought about this…
i’m curious to know what your thoughts are on this. form your tweets, you’re on the same mind-track that i am, it seems. the first one is right on.
this is something that frustrates me to no end…
david–that’s a really scary motto.
I agree with you. I know everyone struggles with bad things and faith. A lot of people struggle with judgement. But, if you have been wronged by someone you understand judgement, but it is much harder when you are sitting before the judge yourself. I think a lot of this comes from people not taking a really good look at themselves and being honest. When you ask them if they have sinned, they will tell you they are a good person. But, if they really looked, they would know, just as I know that there is a really dark side that needs to be redeemed.
As if atheism ever made sense…
joy – my thoughts are pretty much what those twitters are. frustration.
and i should add that this isnt directed to any one person. i think its an attitude that is far too prevalent tho.
i hate games. and what i see played most often in our society is the “blame game”. its rare to see someone actually take responsibility for their actions or admit that the bad things that happen in this world are the fault of us. NOT GOD.
thats my biggest frustration right there.
and the last twitter about dictatorship. yah. that one gets me every time….i want a Savior, i just dont want a Lord. save me God – but dont Lord over me. i want You to fix everything wrong, but dont ask anything of me that may take risk or might be hard. and if You leave me guessing, without giving me answers…im gonna dump You.
its the me, me, me mentality of our society. God hasnt done us an injustice. WE have done to each other an injustice by tolerating this kind of attitude and self-elevation.
k. those are some of my thoughts.
Oh my. You and I could have a looooong conversation about this (both on the same side of course – kind of a duo-rant).
I was thinking about this just the other day. God isn’t the only one people do this to. They also do this to believers. On the one hand they spout ‘feel good’ theology (and yes, it’s theology, even though it doesn’t acknowledge a religion) such as that contained in the idea of tolerance – that there are multiple ways to be ‘good’ and no one person should be judging of another person’s ‘way’ or lifestyle, or actions, or beliefs. Yet on the other hand, when it comes to Christians they throw the whole idea out the window, part and parcel. We are held to a ruler of perfection, and when we fail (as is inevitable – we’re just as prone to sin as the next person) we are scourged as hypocrites and lambasted for not being perfect.
With God – He doesn’t fail. And doesn’t sin. Yet they hold Him to an account that is a very twisted view of who He is. He is the only perfect One, supreme in knowledge, intelligence, power, and wisdom. Yet we in our puny little any brains think He has to give us account. We think that if we cannot comprehend it, that He is unjust.
There is a common denominator, and that is that we as humans are essentially self-absorbed lust lovers. We want it our own way, in our own time, on our own plan, so that it feels good for us. Never mind the course of wisdom. Never mind that there are several billion other lives that could be effected by ours. Never mind that we have choices just as much as the next person.
I was talking with a friend one day who was bringing up this very same question (it’s a deception, really, in the mind of a Christian).
“I just don’t understand how – if God is so loving, how can He let all of these bad things happen?”
“Well, let me ask you a question. Have you ever hurt anyone?”
“Oh yeah. I hurt my husband all the time!”
“So where is God when you’re hurting him? If God loves your husband so much, why doesn’t He make you stop?”
(big pause)
“Well … but there’s free choice too.”
And that … is the crux of it. There is always free choice. And God, in His infinite wisdom, knew that only He could ever make the right decisions all of the time with that free choice. So He knew we would fail. He knew we would hurt people. He knew hard times would come to so many people. Yet the benefit – that we would be free to choose Him, and in that, free to live in His likeness; free to let Him live Himself on the inside of us – outweighed the risks. He has never revoked that choice. We still have it. That is the power of it.
“I have set before you this day, life and death; blessing and cursing.
CHOOSE LIFE
that you may live.”
That was ‘puny little ant brains.’ sigh. Firefox didn’t catch it. I didn’t catch it …
You go Tam….
I have wondered these same things.
God gives us all of these great tools. Hands (with opposable thumbs), feet, brains (some of us), emotions etc….and yet when we do not use those tools, we blame God.
I have a great friend who is a self employed contractor and has no work. When I asked him yesterday what he was doing to find work, he said not much but he knew God would take care of his family. My first thought was…HE HAS…He gave you the tools to do so…
AAAHHHH..please don’t get me started…I just finished writing my rant.
Hey, by the way…thanks for the props on the blog roll!
God has taught me that he is always there the good and the bad and often it is only through the bad that we come to him. So maybe just maybe there might be less bad if we all started putting him first and coming to him no matter what..just a thought.
We live in a sin-sick world.
We groan for a better place.
Someday…
lisa – youre right! absolutely. and from experience, i know that it is pride that keeps is from Him. its too bad. thanks for coming over š
chelle – im with you….”SOMEDAY…….”
I have a close friend who blames people for his perception of God’s shortcomings.
“Well, if God existed people wouldn’t x, y, z.”
“If God was really God, wouldn’t His followers represent Him better?”
“If God is anything like the people I grew up with in church [that really really hurt me] I don’t want anything to do with Him.”
Doesn’t make any logical sense to me. Though, I understand people’s frustration with God’s followers, I don’t understand how at the simplest level you can equate the actions or attitudes of the imperfect followers of a perfect God with the character or attributes of God Himself.
russ – and THAT is what boggles me too! i dont know that i’ll ever understand it.
I see people blaming the misfortune of others on God, and then saying “Well if he won’t help them why would he help me.?” Because they are to busy trying to stay in control of something they don’t have control over. They would rather put the blame elsewhere than look inwardly.
I told a friend yesterday: Take God out of the equation. People will still hurt people, Suffering will still happen, and Greed will still rule the day. Then who do they blame?
Most don’t realize that is starts with “YOU”… No one else. God and YOU… Get that right first…
On the flip side, as I get closer to God I find my self sometimes with the same questions. I have to stop myself and realize, there are just bad people in this world. My mission field is what God lays before me. And my questioning is just Satan using the influences of the world to try and make me let go of the hand of God.
The people that blame God for the evil and bad things in the world have not made the effort to look at the evidence of changed lives. Not just the people here and now, but the believers and saints before us.
Satan will use anything of this world to get at us, even the suffering of others. God will use his power over us to win our hearts. God changes the hearts of man so that man can change the thoughts and attitudes of the world. God sent one Man to work one heart at a time to change the world.
Romans 12:1-2 Tells us to offer ourselves to God first, transform our mind.. Then we can see his will. For me his will is to change the hearts of men and women to seek him with all their heart.
The people blaming God, do need to see us seeking him with all our heart so they can see the evidence of a changed heart and the affects it can have on the world.
im actually surprised no one played the devils advocate here. i was kinda expecting it.
i guess im not out of my mind then?
wait. dont answer that.
“those who don’t believe in God question how a “God” can let bed things happen”
I don’t believe in God. My understanding/interpretation of the religious term “free will” would mean that humans choose to either follow or not follow God’s guidance. It’s mankind that is responsible for injustice when he/she exercises their free will and does not obey their God’s guidance. It’s my perception that Christians believe God’s guidance is “perfect”, the struggle is to properly understand, and follow, it.
My frustration with those of who believe in God is the claim that anything “good” that happens is because of God. Everything bad that happens is because of man. God’s guidance gets all of the credit and none of the blame. Mankind is given no credit for justice but all the blame for injustice. It’s a very convenient claim that makes it impossible to argue against following what believers say is God’s guidance.
This is why believers and non-believers can’t, in my view, debate the issue of the Christians God’s guidance. We can discuss it to reach a better understanding of each other but in the end you either believe in it or you don’t.
Yeah, I’ve got LOTS of thoughts on this, all of which I’d be scared to say face-to-face to most of you! As a Christian, it is so isolating when you struggle with these things, because to say them and reach out to fellow believers for support is nearly impossible. What I tend to get in response is a lot of theology, a lot of “pray more, keep believing” and lots of other Christian jargon, when I know all of it. In fact, after my years of schooling, etc., I can come up with all the arguments and explanations myself as to why I should not be feeling disappointment and doubt about God’s role in my life and all the above discussions about good and bad, etc. But yet, there are so many of us that continue to struggle with this. I continue to seek and study and read whatever I can…and I hope it’s not always like this.
I realize it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but to everyone in on this discussion, just please continue to pray and be sensitive to those of us who do battle these types of doubts and questions. We’re trying–I promise! At least we’re even asking these questions as opposed to being completely apathetic and complacent! Thanks everyone!
tiffany – i sure do appreciate you commenting here. and trust me…there is nothing you cant say here. no one is gonna attack you. i promise. if anyone did, their comment would be removed and theyd have a talkin to. š
it seems to me that you do not represent the people i am speaking to here tho. which is refreshing. you seem to have a desire to keep learning and growing. i understand we all get frustrated by life, and with not having all the answers, and with not understanding why things happen the way they do…i get that. but its one thing to blame God for all of that and then not becoming part of a solution that addresses positively the area in which frustrate us the most. thats who im speaking to.
i love that youre trying! dont give up. surround yourself with people of faith who can encourage and inspire you, and who will also speak the truth.
i hate that believers shoot their own wounded. it has never made sense to me. no one will shoot you here š we’re in this together!
Can I just say? Tiffany I SO respect you for saying what was on your heart here. I know most of the time it’s not easy, and I personally appreciate the candidness.
Hey Ed – I’m totally not trying to debate you here (because to a certain extent I think you’re right – at some point debate is meaningless). But I do have a question: when you say that you’re frustrated because in a Christian’s mind everything good comes from God, and everything not is man’s fault … where do you feel the imbalance is? Would you put the fulcrum more on God’s side for fault, or give man more credit … or both? Or something else?
Hi Annie, My perception of the Christian doctrine(?) is that God could not be at fault. I can understand the idea that mankind is responsible for any injustice in the world, not God. God can only provide the guidance.
I also think that even among believers mankind should get some credit where justice does exist. My perception is that in the religious word God’s guidance is gets the credit for all of mankinds accomplishments and humans nothing but the blame for what is wrong.
I take responsibility for every action I have taken. I’ll don’t blame anyone else but myself when an action I have taken harms someone, or myself. I also give my self a pat on the back when I something I do actually works out. Obvious I also give credit to people who assisted me.
I think the religious world should give more credit to mankind for right, and justice, actions we have taken.
today—just today—i’d like God to fix everything.
cause sometimes free will sucks.
Leesh – it’s not our free will that sucks – not EVER!!!
what makes us feel like ‘it’ sucks is our massive and all too fallible, limited, selfish, ‘human’ EGO’s.
And i DO know that we don’t want to think of ourself as being in any way ‘egotistical’ and i am not saying this. But it is our ego(s – plural) which is what prevents us from understanding fully and having a ‘correct’ relationship with God.
ego includes our ‘lack’ of belief in ourselves every bit as much as those who believe TOO much (at the expense of God’s proper place in their lives) in themselves. it is what the ‘earth’ (and our earthly life’s experiences) place into us from birth that lead to the ‘things’ we have the greatest ‘difficulty’ with and which we came to earth to learn of and hopefully ‘resolve’.
Hold on to Hope and give your heart it’s free-will.
<B
Hey Ed š
Speaking personally, i am confident you and i could debate ‘God’s Guidance’ quite well as i have a somewhat similar view to yours on the subject of God ‘only’ being the ‘good’ element in human life. (Satan operates with God’s full permission and indeed was God’s creation and He knew full well (since He is omniscient) what the ‘result’ would entail).
Here is the ‘basic’ problem the way i see it though.
God – if we assume Him to be/have a consciousness and some reasons for ‘creating’ the Universe is clearly far more (of everything) that a single man could ever be.
To me this means God ‘contains’ far more idea about what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad’ (assuming also that He has the same dichotomy concerning these that we lesser non-infinite beings/consciousnesses do) š
So if He wills it He is far more able to ‘lead us’ to do ‘good’ than we ever could ourselves, by reason of His greater awareness/knowledge.
Further if we as a ‘single’ human (or even if we ‘pool’ our individual ideas) ‘do good and at the same time try to deny He had anything to do with it, again we could not ‘do’ good as well as if we had the guidance of an infinite Omniscient all knowing being assisting us.
it comes down to the simple fact that however ‘hard’ we try ( or feel we try because we often feel we are doing more than we actually do) we remain finite and of lesser ‘ability’ than has God – we can be far more fallible than He can – ergo we end up doing far more ‘bad’ – even if we do not have the intention of doing so – than God does in our own life.
Now i also happen to believe that either directly or indirectly God is responsible for many ‘natural’ disasters that take innocent human life which many people might think is actually ‘bad’… so the debate can continue š
<B
Oh and on another ‘point’…
If God (and most Christians and Muslims so believe) took a lump of dust and breathed life into it to create the first man (not to mention the ‘little matter’ of every Sun in the Universe) then i don’t think it takes much of a stretch of imagination to believe He would be more than capable of making any one of us ‘perfect’ right here and now just through a single ‘word’. In other words.. i think He has the ability to do far more than merely offer us ‘guidance’ in this world.
The act of imbuing ‘free-will’ within each of us shows he did not intend to do ‘all the good’ by Himself, but rather wanted each of us to come to the realisation that we may choose for ourselves what to believe and what to ‘do’.. what we ‘think’ is right and/or wrong.
I do think he left a few ‘clues’ and people who can provide helpful ideas for others to benefit from and ‘help’ make the ‘right’ decisions.
I know of at least three people who have actually felt , even a small part, of His presence enter their lives at a given moment and that moment stays with them for a very very long time. š
<B
Ed – thanks for answering! I can see where you’re coming from. To a certain extent I can agree with your idea, because we as humans have the right to choose, and therefore have consequences, and yes, rewards, depending on what we choose. I think most people would agree with this. The reason why most Christians are unwilling to lay credit at their own feet is two-fold. One: pride is the worst of all sins (in fact, it’s my idea that pride is the only sin – all sins stem from this one), and we as Christians know how prone we are to it. Consequently we don’t want to ‘give ground’ so to speak and start puffing ourselves up in pride. Number two: the more you know about yourself, and the more you know about God, the more you realize that we truly do depend on Him for even the most mundane of tasks. This comes down to a realization that we wouldn’t even exist without Him – He is the strength in our bodies, the intelligence in our minds, the compassion of our hearts, and the life of our souls. Consequently – what credit can we really take? Even if we did choose well – it was only by His strength that we did. As I told my friend once, “The person that I am without Him is not worth knowing.” He makes me beautiful. He gives me the ability to truly love. He gives me the strength to forgive when I am wronged. He gives me the compassion for people I’ve never met – to do something impactful in their lives. And I depend on His guidance every moment of the day to continue doing those things that are of good report. So … yes, I choose. But He is the strength behind the choice, and the strength to live it. That is why we always give the glory back to Him. And as a side note: the Bible does make it clear that He will give rewards to men on the basis of the things they have done with their lives. So He does not overlook it.
Thanks, Ed! I appreciate your openness to ask questions, and have good conversation. š It’s a rarity. May the goodness of God be upon your head.
annie and love – thank you for your comments!
annie – i love the reminder you ended with…
“And as a side note: the Bible does make it clear that He will give rewards to men on the basis of the things they have done with their lives. So He does not overlook it. ”
thanks for bringing that up.
alece – i know. i love you.
Annie, I haven’t studied the Bible since I was 18, 47 years ago. I wasn’t aware of:
āAnd as a side note: the Bible does make it clear that He will give rewards to men on the basis of the things they have done with their lives. So He does not overlook it.”
The religious training I did receive as a teenager seemed to stress the fear of hell, and the unwothyness(?) of makind, at least that is how I precived it.
I can see the benefit in religious faith of shifting our focus from ourselves to someone else. Self-centeredness has been a charater flaw I have work at all my life.
Ego & Pride are a double edge sword. I needed my ego to gain the confidence to be able to deal with life. I need to develop pride which can serve as postive reinforcement.
I can see the value in humbleness that Christians see as a important virtue. I don’t value being humble as much, but that is based on my experinces in life.
Annie, Tam, and the rest of my Christian friends, it is good to see we have all found the faith we need, and we all do need faith. It is the foundation we build our lives on.
hi ed!
you are exactly right!
and shifting my focus off of me and onto Someone else has been the most important thing in my life. im so glad ive been able to. i wouldnt be able to stand myself otherwise… nor would other people šÆ
im so glad to call you friend, ed!